BEAR-ly Getting Started 12.3 - Flanders Red

The original Belgium sour ale comes to the forefront as we learn the components of how it is made as well as learning some about the technique. Over 200 years of history in just one, great beer. If you were ever curious about glassware, Jason and Craig touch on the subject to really get you thinking. Featuring Rodenbach Classic from Brouwerij Rodenback in Roeselare, Vlaams Gewest, Belgium.

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Transcript

Jason:

Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to Barely Getting Started, episode 12.3. We're talking about noteworthy niche beers. We're three episodes deep in. I'm Jason here along with Craig from Magic Beer Beer Cellar recording in Magic Beer Beer Cellar.

It's 80 degrees here on a beautiful Buffalo day. And what do we have up next on tap here? Yeah, it's a can, actually.

Craig:

So what's what's interesting about this is, you know, other series were kind of, you know, when we did the drinking desserts or, you know, obviously we do a Belgian series or German. A lot of the beers have similar characteristics. So we're we're we're definitely flipping things around from where we, you know, just started.

We had a Keller Kolsch beer from Strange Bird and then, you know, we just finished up with Griffin, you know, Western New York brewery in Youngstown with a nice New Zealand white IPA. And this noteworthy niche is basically like, oh, I don't know if I've ever had that style. And you write it down.

It's noteworthy, but it is niche because there's not a lot of them. The flavor profiles might be very niche, meaning not a ton of people are into it. And this is one of those ones that I think either you're going to like or you're not going to like.

Not necessarily you, Jason, in particular, but people in general. A lot of times, you know, yes, we are doing, you know, a beer established in 1821 in Belgium. Right.

So this is this is a true classic with Rodenbach. It's a classic Belgian sour ale, but it is a Flemish ale and it's one of the Flanders reds. So, again, one of those things that I'm allowed to dive deep in, you know, try, you know, where we're barely getting started to not go too crazy to get your notebooks out.

Yeah, but, you know, a beer that is going to be niche, but it's noteworthy because it's different. You know, you're not going to see a lot of these. The only people around here that I've seen do similar stuff is basically 42 North has a kind of crazy wild ale and sour barrel aged program.

And they'll do some some Flanders reds and then the sister brother beer, the Oud Bruin. So I'll start digging in. And actually, you know, there's a nice little script here on the can.

So I'll just give you what they tell us right off the can. So Rodenbach classic is the original Belgian sour ale is a refreshing blend of young, immature beer fermented in age for two years and are standing oak casks, a.k.a. fooders, not voters, fooders. I added that part, a brewing method during dating to the Middle Ages, a perfect balance of caramelized roasted malt and tart fruit notes with subtle oak undertone and refreshing crisp yet lingering finish, all a result of maturing in our oak casks.

Fantastic with food and friends. So also nicknamed and sometimes known as the Burgundy of Belgium. This is one of the beers, you know, in the sour family of beers with the Belgian culture.

You've got your lambics, which are more the like the Brussels and capital region. And then you have your Flanders Red and your Flanders Brown or your Oud Brun. The Flemish ales are kind of referred to as that one sentence right there.

Jason:

We could have done like three callbacks to different individual episodes. Yeah, they're really getting started.

Craig:

Tons of tons of stuff. Yeah, we've done a lambic before, but these are the beers that are a little bit more wine like. One of the big components is these are aged in oak.

A footer is just a very large version of a cask or a barrel. But just, you know, if you think of a standard barrel, what's in your head of like, you know, the size of a keg, make it 30 feet tall and, you know, 50 feet wide. I mean, these these footers hold, you know, tens and thousands of gallons at times and, you know, are consistently being worked on and staves are replaced.

So just a kind of a very just artistic way of brewing and been brewing for a long period of time. And then these these old oak casks and footers, they end up having these microbes in them that end up adding additional souring components. We've talked about like Brettanomyces, but what's really characteristic of these Flemish ales is Acetobacter.

So acetic acid and acetic acid, because if you think about your standard breweries, fruited sours, they're usually lactose sour or lactic sours with lactic acid. And that is more of your buttermilk sour, your sour cream sour, kind of like a tart. But that's what lactic acid is.

So Acetobacter is a bacteria that produces acetic acid. And it's crazy because if you have dirty draft beer lines, one of the things that produces is Acetobacter along with some diacetyl. So if you ever have a beer that's not supposed to be sour nor buttery and it's buttery and sour, it might be your purveyor of that beer, not just the beer.

So don't don't immediately blame the beer.

Jason:

Are your tap lines buttery and sour?

Craig:

Well, it could be because of yeah, just, you know, try a different beer from them. And if they're all buttery and sour, drink water and lots of it. But if we break down Belgium, Belgium is such, you know, such a cool country because there's so many languages, so many influences.

It's been, you know, surrounded by so much, you know, conflict and between the French Revolution and obviously all the German invasions and you name it. You've got kind of three regions. The most southern regions, kind of like the Bologna area.

And you might know things like 42 North as Bologna with Bologna is kind of known for its wit beer. Very easy drinking like wit beers and Saison's much more like the farm and like countryside type beers. Then you got the capital region, you know, Brussels, and that is known for both Lambert production and that might be more where the Saison's are from as well.

I think maybe Bologna is more your wit beers and then you got your Lambics and your Saison's. And then when you get northern, that's when there's some Dutch influence and they speak Flemish Dutch and that's the Flanders region. So there's West Flanders and East Flanders and they kind of have their own indicative beer styles where East Flanders is your Oud Brun or Old Brown and you have your West Flanders which is your Flanders Red or Flemish, the Flemish ales.

And these are much more vineous or wine like. Still a beer, still made with grains. The main difference between the Red and the Brown or the East and the West or the Oud Brun and the Flemish Red, Oud Brun is not aged in oak so it's more, it's not as like acidic sour.

It is aged in stainless steel, it has a little bit more of a malt complexity to it, a little bit more caramel where the Flemish Red has some caramel notes but then there's this really acidic and the best way to, and I don't want to, because none of these beers should be overly vinegary. That's a fault. If it has acidic acid which just gives it enough sourness, enough tang to kind of make it refreshing, it's very akin to like kombucha where it has that, oh yeah, this kind of tastes like, a little bit like vinegar there and are we supposed to be drinking this?

And it's like, nah man, it's very healthy for your gut and it's like yeah sure, it tastes like it too. But the Flemish Red, they kind of have this, a little bit of astringency and it has this, I always say like, almost like a balsamic vinegar sour, right? You have that balsamic vinegar which comes from a grape and it's tasty, you know, but it is sour, it is a vinegar so it's not to that degree but it ends up being refreshing.

You know, obviously, citric acid is what makes lemonade and orange juice refreshing, so this acidic acid is going to be refreshing in the fact that it's acidic but, you know, compiled with a nice malty caramel-like undertone and then these bright, rich, like fruity, almost like cherry-like notes. It just kind of creates this like, juicy, sweet, sour, tangy, and that's why, you know, they say it's great for foods because it is. It's very good with like, it's good to pour in when you're braising some beef or some sort of game meats because it just has that, you know, kind of juicy red wine-like vibe to it that really pairs well with like a caramelized, like the Maillard effect on a seared piece of meat, whether it's a leg of lamb or lamb chops or some venison.

It's got enough, you know, intensity and when we talk about, you know, pairings, food and beer pairings here at Magic Bear, like the number one rule is to match the intensities. So this is really good with dinner because if you have something with tons of flavor, like you have a nice, thick-cut steak with some, you know, brussel sprouts or really just kind of like a hearty green, whether it's bitter or not, and then you've got, you know, like a glass of red wine always seems to go really nice with that because stuff like rosemary and those savory notes that are usually accompanied that type of food, they go really well and bounce really well off that red wine and that kind of tannic, bold red flavor and similar things happen here. So I mean, by no means am I going to be able to switch out your glass of wine and you're going to be like, oh, I can't tell the difference.

It just, when we try this beer versus, you know, the color Kolsch that we started with, you know, you're almost going to be like, is this the same, you know, family? And it's not the same family of beers, but it's still a beer. You know, this is a malt-derived fermented beer and another big part of Oud Bruins and Flanders Reds that kind of put them in the realm of winemaking is they're often blended.

You know, as they said, you know, they're, they're aged, they're blended. So you kind of have this other artistry, like there's the artisanal work of making beer and then there's the aging, the cellaring and the blending. So you take some one year and two year aged versions and, oh, this one's really tart and this one's got a lot of acid and, oh, this one's got nice subtle cherry notes and, and so on and so forth.

Then you start blending them and that's what kind of makes a consistent product is, you know, any, any vineyard, usually their, their blends are pretty consistent because they're taking all different grapes. You know, when you have that single year vintage, that's why one year to another year is going to taste so different because you're, you know, same thing with single malt scotch and so on when it comes to, hey, this is made from this select amount of ingredients versus, hey, we're basically taking everything we got and we're going to blend it to get to a final outcome that we really like, that we're ready to put our name on and that also is consistent. You know, we were just talking about something else, you know, podcasts in general, where consistency is key. So one of the things is consistency here.

So I think I hit up a lot there, so I'm going to, I'm going to crack and start pouring and listen to you if you have any questions or anything you want to say about it.

Jason:

Well, if we, if we want to talk about the consistency, you're talking about this dating back to the, the early to mid 1800s here.

Craig:

I mean, we're over 200 years old here with this brewery.

Jason:

This beer started winning awards as, as far back as 1894 in the World Expo in Antwerp. So this is a, is a long time coming with, with this particular recipe. They are located, now this is Browery Rodenbach, they're located in the, the town of Rooselaere, which in Belgium, which is about an hour West of Ghent.

So if you've, if you've ever spent any time in Belgium, you pass through the, the West Country side, like, listen, like that aroma right there, it isn't even to my nose yet. I'm getting these fruity notes like this is.

Craig:

And I forget, I think we did Sour Power where we did, I forget the name of the brewery, but we did a, a very sweet red. I think it was a man. What was it?

I'll have to, we'll have to come back to that. But it was a sweet red, it might have been.

Jason:

You talking about the Lambic or the Sour Beer?

Craig:

We did a Sour Beer that was, it was like a sour amber ale. It was a Belgian beer. I remember you liked it quite a bit, but it's going to have notes of that.

It'll come back to me, but I forget the name of that beer. I was just pulling up the history. It was something red.

The name of it was red, but I can't remember the name of the brewery. And that's basically what it was. It was there, something red.

So Rodenbok's Classic, not to be confused, they do have Rodenbok Grand Cru, which is kind of like, hey, we're taking the best of what we have and, you know, presenting that. So when we pour this, it's definitely murky. It is not dark brown, but it is definitely a murky brownish red.

It doesn't pour like ruby red by any means. It has definitely red undertones, but it kind of pours like a murky amber or brown ale. And the Petrus, just hit me, Petrus Red was the other one that we had that's very similar to this.

But the Petrus Red, I think, from memory, is going to be a lot sweeter than what this is.

Jason:

Call back to Series 4. I was literally just looking at Series 4.2, and it was just about to tell you Petrus.

Craig:

Petrus Red, I remember just drinking that, and that was like a 7 or 8 percenter, and it just drank super sweet. That is an aroma. So let's do a little tippy tap.

Cheers. So. Well, that's delightful.

I mean, you drink one of these. Another one that's very quintessential is the brewery, excuse me, it's like Brewery Verhagen, but Duchess de Bourgogne. There's this like Duchess that's just on the bottle, and then they make a chocolate cherry version.

That's another widely known Flemish red ale. So basically like those two are the two main Flanders, because I think that Petrus Red, they weren't advertising it. I don't think it was a Flanders ale, but it had vibes of this, but that one was a lot sweeter.

This one's sweet. There's a little tang. So when I say like it should have acetic or, you know, like a slight vinegar, like if you drink this, it doesn't come off vinegary.

It doesn't come off because, you know, you can go really south with this quickly where some of these beers can be very solventy. So you got some people like when you talk about this last episode, we were like, why don't people make more white IPAs? There are a lot of breweries that try to do or not try, but, you know, they have a wild program, which means, hey, we're going to use non-traditional beer yeast.

When I was talking about that Saccharomyces, they're like, no, we want to do bacterium like the Lacto, your Acetobacter, your Bretonomyces yeast, that type of stuff. Pediococcus is another one that you might find in some of these barrels. And that's the type of bacteria that creates an acidic flavor.

That's more like akin to like sauerkraut, that type of souring agent where this is more vinegary and lactic is more like buttermilk and yogurt and sour cream. Yeah, this is one of those like, you know, if you imagine yourself having a steak, eating some asparagus or even just barbecue with this, you know, it's got a slight fruity note, that slight tang. You know, a lot of times when you're cooking greens, I will go and I'll take a little balsamic vinegar or a little apple cider vinegar and you just throw a little tiny dash in there.

It's just enough vinegar. It's kind of like adding a dash of salt, but with a little bit more flavor to, you know, really tone down the bitterness of a green. And it's like adding some sweetness without adding actual sugar or anything like that.

But even, you know, the Italian steak sauce of a balsamic glaze, you do something like that, like that's going to pair perfectly with this. And talk about pizza, you know, like a bread, multi bread note of the crust. But you got a lot of pizzas where they're, you know, with that thick cut mozzarella and you squirt some balsamic glaze on it.

And then you've got some nice bitter arugula or something like that to go with it. This right here with the acid and the tomato sauce, it's just going to kind of blend really nicely.

Jason:

I, yeah, I really like this. One of the things that I like to counter the bite of something like this, the fruit and the sour of the fruits in this was something I would look at something more complementing this with a dessert, going as far as like a creme brulee might be nice with this puddings. But food wise, seafood might be nice with this.

Craig:

Yeah, almost like, you know, if you think of like oysters, oysters or some of your lighter seafood dishes that have like a little mignette or some sort of like vinegar and onion component. Because what you're doing is really trying to push out the flavors of the subtle fish. And yeah, it's just, to me, it's, you could see why they've been doing it for so long in the blending and the aging aspect, because it doesn't come across too fruity, but it's fruity.

It's fruity. It doesn't come across too sour, but it's not sour.

Jason:

No, it's not true sour.

Craig:

Yeah. It's, it, I mean, it, it's a sour beer, but it doesn't come across too sour. And then it's got like, there's a difference to me between like sour where it's like sour, like bittery, like puckering, and then like tang.

And there's a little tang to this. And there's just, you know, this complex myriad of flavor profiles that allow it to stand up to a lot of things. But here, you know, I'm talking, you know, steak and lamb chops and you're saying creme brulee.

And I can see this with cheesecakes and I mean, even with chocolate, like this is going to be great with a chocolate.

Jason:

Cheesecake's a nice one.

Craig:

Yeah. Just things that would go well with a little bit of like anything that's going to have a good tart cherry, right. Whether if it's even that tart or not, like just not like you think of like a cherries jubilee or even when you take a look at a picture of a cheesecake, usually there's that cherry compote poured over top.

And this is something that can kind of cut through and stand up because it's got enough flavor where it will be able to cut through that rich cheesecake. And on the same note, you know, same thing goes if you wanted to have like a decadent chocolate cake with this super like, you know, I think most like a lot of German, like what is it? The Black Forest or that like a lot of them have cherries or, you know, like cherry juice in them.

And to me, this this is one of those things that really, really goes well with chocolate.

Jason:

Last weekend, I just had black like Black Forest brownies for the first time, which I think they meant to go for more cherry flavors. So I, you know, I think they I think they admittedly just kind of missed on it, but I picked it up quite well and I thought it was nice. But yeah, this could be a that could have been a compliment.

Craig:

This go, you know, by the chocolate Black Forest cake with a little bit of this cherry and also what I got, I got a little aftertaste that was I have to go for it again.

Jason:

Yeah, this is this is really definitely the most unique beer of the series so far. And I'm pleasantly surprised.

Craig:

It's been a while since I've had the Rodenbach Classic. I have done much more of their Grand Cru. But yeah, like this is one of those beers where you have a couple of them.

It's only five percent. It is it's a sour beer without it being a fruit cocktail. You know, this is what a sour beer was until, you know, we took it to a whole different level.

But same way that the new smoothie style sour beers or your graham cracker key lime pie beers are good and they have an underlying effervescent beer kind of note to them. This is one of those where if people were drinking like this is a beer and like, yeah, they've been making it for 200 years. But it's it's nice because it's that's why it's noteworthy niche.

It's not something that you're going to see a ton of. Some breweries have come and gone. I used to really like this pantomime mixtures and they were out in like the Finger Lakes area down kind of think near Hector in New York and, you know, the bottom of Seneca Lake there.

But they were making some really, really tasty wild fermented beers. You got places like Lucky Hair in the same area. I think they actually shared a brewer with the pantomime.

I believe you're right. Yeah, but they yeah, they they make they make some nice wild ales. 42 North, they put out some really good wild ales.

The other thing you can kind of do Lambic. If you go back to the Lambic episode, you can add cherries to Lambic and it becomes a creek. You can add raspberries.

It comes a framboise and there's a lot of different things you can add. Same thing goes for these Flemish ales.

Jason:

You get quite the lesson on this series here. There you go. It's like there's there's no quiz at the end of this, but you there but they're very well could be.

Craig:

But the same thing goes for these beers. You can add additional fruit to it, right? But it's one of those things where you kind of you kind of see why this is stood the test of time.

It's a good beer. It is very niche and it's very noteworthy. So I was like, we didn't do a Flemish ale.

We did do Petrus Red, which is very similar. That Petrus Red was just really leaning more on the sweet side. To me, this is much more balanced.

Whereas if you play the tape back, I probably said this Petrus Red is super balanced because we drank it so quickly. It wasn't too strong. It wasn't too sweet.

It wasn't too tart. So balanced in its own aspect. I mean, this beer is more like, wow, just the right amount of tart, just the right amount of Tang, just the right amount of sour and sweetness.

You know, it's almost like if you have a favorite Chinese restaurant and they got that sweet and sour sauce where it's perfect or, you know, like a hot, sour soup. Not that this beer is spicy at all, but, you know, you get something where it's the right amount of sour and it just melds with the rest. And you're just like, you know what?

This is really good. And I remember one time I went to a concert in Toronto and we went to Chinatown and we were just hanging out with this Chinese restaurateur and we asked what was still available. He's like, I got everything available.

I was like, OK. And he just hung out. English well, and we were just, you know, shooting the breeze for four young college undergrad guys that probably had too much to drink already and were just eating a Chinese meal.

And I just started shooting the breeze with this guy. And, you know, I said, you know, there's so many Chinese restaurants here in Chinatown. Like, how do you know?

I was like, your food's very good, sir, and blah, blah, blah. And he started talking about how you judge on the hot, sour soup. He's like, if I go to another restaurant, I order their hot, sour soup.

And that lets me know whether or not I think anything else they're going to give me what quality it's going to be. And, you know, obviously it's just from this one guy from this one time, but it stuck with me. And it's like the same as like when people have talked to me about, you know, if you go to a bakery, try to get the baguette or try to just get their sourdough loaf because something simple.

Yeah. It's the same thing with beer, as with bread, as with, you know, minimal ingredients. But then making something very complex in flavor.

And then the technique, you know, sourdough is, you know, blew up during the pandemic. Not that it needed any more attention, but it feels like tons of people are just all about their sourdough these days. And it's a labor of love because you got to, you know, let it ferment and this, that, the other, and then build the crust properly.

And the next thing you know, you have this immaculate piece of bread that you can do a lot of things with. And I feel that is very akin to beer making, you know, very similar ingredients. And then, you know, you've got places like the old Chinese restaurant that now they're saying, take a look at, you know, I say now they're saying, well, this is almost 20 years ago that I probably did this.

This hot, sour soup is a good way to judge how good they are. So the hot and sour soup isn't good. There's a chance that there's a good chance that everything else is, you know, mediocre at best.

I think I started going down that because, you know, this kind of reminds me of their sweet and sour sauce. Not that I'm the biggest fan of sweet and sour sauce. I think it's a little too sweet.

But every now and then you got that one place that's like, oh, I like their sweet and sour because it's not too sweet. It's not too sour. It's just exactly what I want to dip my chicken balls into.

Something that's got just a little bit of a zip. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah, nothing over the top.

But, you know, again, one of those, you're not going to see too many people putting out Flemish ales. You're not going to see too many people with a tap list that haven't on there. Correct.

But, you know, will you be able to find some Rodenbach in a grocery store? You should. Should.

You know, it's an imported beer. It's a staple. It gets big around the holidays.

So a lot of times you'll see it in a gift set or you'll see that Grand Cru version or they'll come out with a big ornate looking bottle.

Jason:

You know, that's something to try, especially around Christmas time. I really enjoy that the Belgian beers, they'll always put out the collector glass, the gift set, almost like you would go to the liquor store and you'd get the fancy copper glass that goes with the bottle of liquor or whatever. But the same thing with a lot of Belgian beers.

Like I have an, I think I have an Orval at home. That's, oh, I'm sorry. No, it's not that.

It's West Mali. Okay. So I have a West Mali III in that set.

I haven't drank any of them yet. I bought it at Christmas time. But I got the nice chalice glass that went with it.

So I'm looking forward to probably going to put that into our barely or barely getting started. That's what we're doing right now. The Roll for Brew segment on TikTok.

So like something like that.

Craig:

Yeah. Those Belgian glasses, they're perfect, man. They're perfect for the beer that they were meant for, but then good all purpose.

Like right at my 30th birthday. And, you know, that was more than a decade ago. Good friend of mine, this Ron, if you ever listened to this episode, love you, buddy.

But he just, you know, for my birthday, knew I liked beer. He got me one of those gift sets. It was a large bottle of Duvel and had a nice, like, I mean, it's probably a 22 ounce Belgian tulip glass.

Perfect so that you can have that nice bit of head. I've been using that glass and thank God I haven't broke it. But it's one of my favorite glasses to drink out of.

I drink stouts out of it. I'll drink IPAs, you name it. I just feel like beer tastes better out of that glass.

Jason:

Okay. You know, you learn a lot when you go online and read different things. And one of the things I want, and I guess we might have to talk about glasses and more in style at some point, is that sometimes there's glasses that pair with beers for specific reasons because it's aroma, it's flavor profile, it enhances things.

It's not just for pretty looks.

Craig:

No, I mean, they did it with wine. You know, there's Bordeaux glasses, you name it. Red wine, white wine.

Same goes for beer. It's just tough. It's tough to keep that many glasses on.

So for the longest, your multi-purpose glass was the Boston Shaker, it's called, the Bar Pint. 16 ounces, one of the worst glasses you can use to drink. It's easily stackable so it ends up getting a little, like, chip in there here and there.

Not even kidding. Not good for pouring beer. I have easily 20 of them in my cabinet.

And they're not bad. I mean, it holds liquid hopefully. Um, but when I opened, I knew I wanted to do a stemmed Belgian Tulip glass and I've noticed that a lot of breweries since and even some, you know, have switched it up.

But I am noticing the two most popular glasses are what we carry here, a Belgian Tulip. And we do that with our 5 ounce, 10 ounce, 13 ounce, even our 16 ounce pint pass pours or if you're getting a pint beer out of the shelf. Those are one of the most popular.

The other is the Willie Becker. Okay. Uh, kind of a German Pilsner, uh, kind of, it's kind of their multi-purpose glass.

But I see a lot of that and it's, um, it's one where if you saw, I'd be like, yo, yeah, I've seen this at a lot of breweries.

Jason:

I think I got a Becker from here. I think I got it from here when Jack Sabby came in.

Craig:

That's, yeah, with the Pilgrim, the Jack Sabby Becker.

Jason:

I like that one.

Craig:

So yeah, another good glass. But, uh, if you have just one glass, make it a Magic Bear Belgian Tulip. But if it's not Magic Bear, I would, I would still look for a stemmed Belgian Tulip glass.

Jason:

Nice. Yeah. I feel like, uh, I feel like we're on the cusp of, uh, a very special episode.

They're talking about glasses and I think that might be something we have to start taking some notes on. But, uh, yeah, we, uh, we're three up and three down. We've got one left in this series.

It's amazing how fast that these, these go through on a nice batch recording day like this here in the below. But, um, we, uh, you know, we've, we've talked about, uh, Belgium. We've talked about Rochester.

We've talked about Youngstown.